Greg Fischer campaigning for Mitch McConnell with gutter campaign tactics
Joe Sonka April 30th, 2008
(crossposted at B & P)
I’ve honestly never seen supporters of a candidate gloat about being 25 points down in a poll with only 20 days until an election. I’m not sure whether to laugh or feel sorry for them. It’s like they are Greg Fischer’s Tinkerbell constituency: just clap louder and everything will be OK.
What’s not funny is that Fischer’s folks are actually believing their own hype in order to justify starting Mitch McConnell’s attack Vencor ads for him. For all this talk about Lunsford’s “baggage”, the only relevance I can see is that Fischer is serving as Mitch McConnell’s bellboy, doing all of Mitch’s heavy lifting for him. Once more, pointing out the Fletcher endorsement and claiming he’s too far to the right are fair game; beating on Vencor is simply Mini-Mitch mudslinging.
And I love this ridiculous theory about how Lunsford will inevitably fail at the end of the campaign. The last time I checked, Jonathan Miller wasn’t in this race about to drop out and hand over a significant % to Fischer. And the last time I checked, criminal Steve Henry isn’t in the race imploding with supporters going to Fischer. Looking at this objectively, there’s absolutely no comparison between this year and last year.
Want more proof? 80% of voters say they have already made up their mind, with only 20% saying they might change their mind. It’s simple math.
(There also seems to be little discussion of Fischer’s internal poll from two months ago showing the race 39%-22% for Lunsford. Does this mean that Fischer has dropped 8 points in the past 2 months???)
You may not like it (as I don’t), but Bruce Lunsford is in all likelihood our nominee, and it’s time to close ranks behind him if he wins this primary so we can Ditch Mitch. Every time Fischer makes this low blow, Mitch McConnell is sitting back and laughing. It’s like Greg Fischer’s campaign is being run by Hunter Bates. It’s sick.
So to all the Fischer supporters: I have no beef with you, but once this primary is over, if Bruce is our nominee, we have to let bygones be bygones and focus on Mitch.
Remember, when Greg Fischer makes statements like this:
“…replacing Mitch McConnell with Bruce Lunsford is no change at all”
…he is simply deceiving you. He’s insulting your intelligence. We may not love (or even like) Bruce, but he is NOT Mitch McConnell. Not even close. Not in the same ballpark. Our state and our country can’t afford to let grudges stand in the way of ridding us of Mitch once and for all. (looking at you, Crazy Shark)
(P.S.- since when is Greg Fischer the candidate of the KY Netroots? I know of only one pro-Fischer website. Odd…)
- 2008 KY U.S. Senate Race , Bruce Lunsford , Greg Fischer , Mitch McConnell
- Comments(36)
Joe,
I appreciate your opinions. It is with respect that I disagree with your argument here.
Coincidentally, I just left a comment in the post below that I think speaks to your post. I’ll repost it here.
“Thanks for your perspective.
As to your first point, a lot of people in the “Netroots” have been calling this race over for well over a month now – I would argue those calls have been completely lacking in merit. Now they say that Fischer staying in the race is only helping McConnell by hurting Lunsford. By their logic, if one doesn’t have a race sewn up with 60 days to go to an election, he is somehow supporting the other party’s candidate? Anyone who has any political experience or acumen worth talking about knows that if a race is going to close it’s going to be in the last month. That’s what we are seeing here.
Will Fischer be able to overcome being down 25 points? That remains to be seen, but I certainly won’t villanize him for trying.
A month ago some of these same people were calling for Fischer to be aggressive and citing his nonagressive campaign and a lack of self funding as an excuse to support Lunsford. Now Fischer has outraised Lunsford 2-to-1 and started an aggressive campaign and suddenly they claim he supports McConnell? If folks want to support Lunsford, they should feel free to do so. But, they shouldn’t be embarrassed and try to couch it in some sort of disdain for Fischer.
Would this same logic have applied to Andrew Horne if he had stayed in the race? Would his lack of money have led the “Netroots” call Andrew Horne a Mitch McConnell supporter because he simply couldn’t compete with Lunsford’s money or name ID? “
Shawn, you’ve completely missed every single point I made.
As I’ve stated endlessly, Fischer’s campaign would be in dereliction of duty if it didn’t go after him of the Fletcher endorsement. His campaign is supposed to show that he’s the true Democrat.
Going after Vencor at this stage is campaigning for Mitch, though. That is quite obvious when the margin is this wide.
I’ve been completely consistent in my argument.
I’ve consistently said that if Fischer had actually started spending his money when he entered the race, he would have had a shot. He could have built his name ID up, and then gone after Bruce at this stage of the campaign as a DINO to show their differences. He did not, and you can’t go back and change reality, unfortunately.
No one is telling Fischer to “get out of the race”, as you say. Show me one person that has said that. He should actually try to show that he is the best candidate and the true democrat unlike Lunsford. But at this stage going after Vencor IS campaigning for Mitch.
Anyone with political experience or acumen knows that.
In fairness, *I* have kinda said that Fischer should get out. Something along the lines of, “If you can’t figure out how to run this race, get the eff out now” or whatever.
Is it the distance and disconnection from what’s actually happening in Kentucky politics that causes people like Shawn to be so far out with their arguments? Sure, they love Greg Fischer. That’s fine. No one’s attacking that. But to STILL believe Greg is their savior? To STILL believe he has a shot? What?
Greg Fischer/A.J. Carrillo/Kim Geveden have squandered any opportunity for respect let alone any opportunity to win a race. It’s simple reality and has nothing to do with personal preference.
Getting up in arms that someone in the (alternative) media would have the audacity to report every screw up a campaign makes (how dare us!) kinda blows my mind. Sitting idly by, allowing things to slip by the radar is what got us into this mess with Georgie Dubya and the rest of the incompetent crew.
I mean… Greg’s Communications Director jumped ship today because of the shenanigans. Wouldn’t you know that a handful of Fischer’s folks had to freak out at me via email merely for reporting the news along with some background information. It’s almost like people *want* to turn a blind eye to reality.
Joe,
Thanks for your rebuttal, I enjoy the time and effort you put into explaining your well thought beliefs, though I may disagree with them.
I’m interpreting your statements to say that Fischer should run a race and not use all the tools as his disposal to win. Otherwise, you say he is campaigning for McConnell. So, run the race with one hand behind his back. Further, you say that he should do this because there is no way he can win. To me, that’s the equivalent of calling for him to get out of the race.
Either way, that’s not my main issue. The issue is that you are arguing that Greg is de-facto campaigning for McConnell. That’s simply not true. Fischer believes he is the best candidate. The voters will decide whether or not they agree with him soon enough. I just don’t think there is a need to villanize him in the mean time.
Jacob,
I don’t know you personally. But, I do know that you never ever address the arguments of another person without personal attacks. I think that’s toxic to what we are trying to accomplish here. I’ll address any arguments you make on the merits when you respectfully articulate it without stooping to personal attacks.
Calling me “far out” and “disconnected” because I’m currently in law school is ridiculous.
Not entering the debate, just answering a question from the original post:
(There also seems to be little discussion of Fischer’s internal poll from two months ago showing the race 39%-22% for Lunsford. Does this mean that Fischer has dropped 8 points in the past 2 months???)
The Fischer internal poll included only 3 options: Fischer, Lunsford and “undecided”; see http://polwatchers.typepad.com/pol_watchers/files/Fischer-Memo.pdf
The 2 April Survey USA polls each gave 9 options: 7 candidate names, “other” and “undecided”.
http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=fa11baad-2621-4347-b1c3-ec92a8acef90&c=45
Personal attack?
Calling you far out and disconnected is hardly a personal attack.
I used that terminology because you’ve been so wrong on the U.S. Senate race and because you’re in New York– not because you’re in law school or any other reason.
Get over this holier than thou bit. And quick. Politics isn’t puppies, rainbows and courtesies.
And to insinuate that Greg Fischer can’t be villainized after all the horse shit he’s pulled with Bruce (all the while knowing it’s an impossibility for him to beat Bruce)? Please.
Like I said, this is politics. Nothing more, nothing less.
Again, nothing on the merits, just more personal attacks. You’ve made my point.
While I appreciate the realpolitik arguments that Fischer has little chance of winning and that we should close ranks and focus on Mitch, I don’t get this disgust at using the Vencor angle.
Fact is, Lunsford’s hands are VERY DIRTY from the years of shenanigans there. This is how he made his fortune and why he is even on the political stage to begin with. It is shameful and should not be buried.
For the life of me I want Mitch to lose to any Democrat, but I have a hard time tarring Fischer for digging up a despicable part of Lunsford’s past.
now the GOP started on Bruce, I guess this not fair either! check out Mark Hebert
GOP Says Lunsford Violated Disclosure Law
3:39 PM Tue, Apr 29, 2008 | Permalink
Mark Hebert
The Kentucky Republican Party is filing a complaint with the FEC, claiming democrat Bruce Lunsford violated campaign finance laws by failing to properly disclose that his campaign paid for a Lunsford appearance on a Louisville TV station.
Here is my response to Joe’s post, published originally at BlueGrassRoots.
I really, honestly, truthfully do not get Joe’s sense that it is time to get behind Lunsford.
Joe says: You may not like it (as I don’t), but Bruce Lunsford is in all likelihood our nominee, and it’s time to close ranks behind him if he wins this primary so we can Ditch Mitch. Every time Fischer makes this low blow, Mitch McConnell is sitting back and laughing. It’s like Greg Fischer’s campaign is being run by Hunter Bates. It’s sick.
First, is Lunsford going to be our nominee or is he “in all likelihood our nominee?” ‘Cause a few weeks ago, Joe said, “It will be Bruce Lunsford vs. Mitch McConnell.” Has something changed? If Bruce is definitely, undeniably our nominee, then, I agree, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to attack him. But, if there is a chance to nominate Greg, as Joe appears to be acknowledging, then why close ranks around Lunsford now? Isn’t now exactly the moment to stand up and advocate for someone better?
Second, the “damage” that Fischer can/will do to Lunsford in the next three weeks is, literally, pocket change to what McConnell’s moneywad will do in the FIVE MONTHS of the general election. To believe that Fischer is doing damage now that is not inevitable in an election with the Dirtiest Campaigner Ever is, in my mind, just as fantastical as my estimation of Fischer’s chances in three weeks is in his mind. It’s like saying, “Don’t slap that man!” when the man’s head is tied to the bottom of a guillotine. In other words, I believe Fischer’s attacks will have NO effect on Bruce’s ultimate chances against Mitch but do offer us an opportunity to field a better general election candidate.
Third, are we supposed to close ranks now or in three weeks? Joe says “it’s time to close ranks.” But, he amends that with “if [Bruce] wins the primary.” So, do we close ranks now or after the primary? He then clarifies (sort of) by saying, “So to all the Fischer supporters: I have no beef with you, but once this primary is over, if Bruce is our nominee, we have to let bygones be bygones and focus on Mitch.” I agree, I think. If Bruce wins the primary, I’ll be supporting him. I really will. I know a lot of people on this blog say, “Uh Uh, not ever. No way will I support Bruce Lunsford.” That’s fine. But, I don’t believe there’s no difference between Bruce and Mitch. While the difference may not be as great as between Greg and Mitch, there is a difference.
But, until the primary is over, I’m going to continue supporting the candidate I believe has the most Democratic credibility and least baggage: Greg Fischer. And, I hope he slaps that guillotined man hard.
a few examples of Fischer support in the netroots:
BlueAmerica PAC, endorsement and live blogging at Firedoglake
http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/05/blue-america-welcomes-greg-fischer/
Matt Stoller at Open Left
http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=5453
Down with Tyranny
http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/2008/04/can-kentuckys-reactionary.html
Several of the people who write pro-Fischer diaries on BGR also post on other KY blogs and on national blogs, such as
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/30/121128/309/92/506392
http://ky88thld.blogspot.com/2008/03/money-shouldnt-change-everything.html
Dean at Out of the Mountains
http://thisandthatat.blogspot.com/2008/04/vote-greg-fischer-in-kentuckys-senate.html
and at least 6 local chapters of Change for Kentucky have endorsed Fischer
http://changeforkentucky.com/archives/000215.html
(the Lexington chapter is not included on that press release)
Finally, there is no unity of opinion at http://www.BlueGrassRoots.org — on any topic. In my opinion, encouragement for a range of Democratic viewpoints is what makes BGR interesting, and it’s why so many people post diaries there (more than 20 individual diarists promoted to the main page in April alone).
some examples of Fischer support in the netroots:
ActBlue/Firedoglake
http://firedoglake.com/2008/04/05/blue-america-welcomes-greg-fischer/
Matt Stoller/Open Left
http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=5453
Down with Tyranny
http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/2008/04/can-kentuckys-reactionary.html
Out of the Mountains
http://thisandthatat.blogspot.com/2008/04/vote-greg-fischer-in-kentuckys-senate.html
BGR regular RDemocrat at Daily Kos
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/30/121128/309/92/506392
BGR regular SarahG at Focus on the 88th
http://ky88thld.blogspot.com/2008/03/money-shouldnt-change-everything.html
Fischer endorsements by 6 local CFK chapters (these 5 plus Lexington)
http://changeforkentucky.com/archives/000215.html
And there is no unity of opinion at http://www.BlueGrassRoots.org — which actively encourages a wide range of Democratic perspectives. In April alone, more than 20 individual diarists had posts promoted to the BGR front page, and many of the regular commenters do not write their own posts.
Huh?
Ummm…. how is completing a sentence amending? And how can someone who graduated law school not comprehend that sentence?- Here’s my sentence:
I find the intentional distortion of my rational argument by the Tinkerbell constituency quite sad, but not very surprising.
And this is hilarious:
Hillary Clinton couldn’t have said it better herself. Farrakhan!!!! Elitist!!!
Oh well, three more weeks.
And keep clapping, kids!!!
it’s all on the Internet all you have to do is google “lunsford vencor” and “lunsford medicare fraud” and you don’t think Mitch want use this better now than later!
tinyurl.com/5gkhg6
tinyurl.com/5ps2z2
tinyurl.com/6ldez8
I seem to recall Horne going negative vs. Yarmuth around this time in ‘06. I seem to recall many of those now criticizing Fischer for going negative vs. Lunsford having expressed support and admiration for Horne. I happen to believe that Lunsford is much much much much much more deserving of these types of attacks than Yarmuth ever was. I happen to believe Vencor is relevant. Fischer is quite the long shot, of course, but then, so was Horne. In any case, why would all you bloggers be so damned willing to participate in the traditional Democratic circular firing squads? I think this kind of crap hurts the party much more than a few negative primary ads.
Another intentional misrepresentation. Repeat after me (again)–”As I’ve stated endlessly, Fischer’s campaign would be in dereliction of duty if it didn’t go after him of the Fletcher endorsement. His campaign is supposed to show that he’s the true Democrat”
and when you say this- “why would all you bloggers be so damned willing to participate in the traditional Democratic circular firing squads?” right after you say you support Fischer using Vencor attacks, you look a little… well…
bloggers/Fischer
bloggers/Fischer
Get it? As you suggest (unevenly and inconsistently without offering any articulate rationale for the inconsistency - i.e., why shouldn’t Vencor play a major role in our assessment of Lunsford and his candidacy?), it’s Fischer’s role to go after Lunsford. How is it your role to go after Fischer (and his supporters, who should be your biggest allies, past, present, and future, but will likely be less so because of your attacks)?… on Lunsford’s behalf? Do you really like Lunsford that much? Do you really hate Fischer that much? Do you really believe that Mitch needs the slightest bit of help from Fischer in milking absolutely everything it’s possible to milk out of the Vencor affair? You support Lunsford. Fine, make your case. I merely suggest trying to be reasonable and consistent and refraining from calling your fellow grassroots progressives names. Who knows, you might actually end up convincing a few people that you’re right.
lol
I don’t know what you guys have against Crit, Yarmuth and Conway, but I think they’re pretty damn good Democrats, and they agree with me:
http://barefootandprogressive.blogspot.com/2008/05/breaking-crit-yarmuth-conway-and.html
What was that about Joe and I being wrong again?
Joe’s own words then:
http://www.ditchmitchky.com/category/bruce-lunsford/
In his two failed gubernatorial bids, Lunsford spent about $14 million, and failed to win the Democratic primary either time. Nevertheless, it appears that Lunsford has the inside track on insider support, reportedly receiving the tacit encouragement of Governor Steve Beshear as well as national Democratic leaders in Washington DC, ostensibly because Lunsford has the most money to put into the race. There are two major flaws in that logic though. First, if Lunsford’s money couldn’t win him a statewide primary in two tries, there’s no overwhelming reason to believe his money will put him over the top in both a primary and a general against an exceedingly well-funded McConnell this time around.
…snip……
Additional concerns exist with Lunsford’s commitment to Democratic Party ideals. Lunsford has a very long history of political campaign contributions to Republican candidates and committees, including $1,000 to Mitch McConnell in 1993 and another $250 to McConnell in 1999. On top of that, after his failed 2003 gubernatorial primary bid, Lunsford endorsed the Republican nominee over the Democratic nominee – that Republican was corrupt Ernie Fletcher. I don’t readily see how Lunsford answers the question from Mitch McConnell, “How is it that you can contribute to my campaign on one day, support my Party and my candidates one day, and then turn on me and my Party the next day?”
Now when somebody else says things like that, Joe says he is doing Mitch’s dirty work.
Does not compute.
funny how CW lacks reading comprehension as well
i’m REALLY enjoying this, I must say
looks like we need a senate primary poll for the bluegrass blogs
Joe,
Fischer and his chances aside, you still have failed to answer how highlighting Lunsford’s Vencor history is such a hand-wringingly dirty and childish tactic.
Does your silence imply that you somehow condone the business practices of the company he founded and led for many years and which is in essence funding his campaign?
Joe,
I don’t get what’s so hard. You said, “You may not like it (as I don’t), but Bruce Lunsford is in all likelihood our nominee, and it’s time to close ranks behind him if he wins this primary so we can Ditch Mitch.”
You said this three weeks before the primary.
So, are we to close ranks now (”it’s time”) or later (”if he wins this primary”)? You see, I find it difficult to comprehend this sentence because you ask people to close ranks now based on a contingency that has not yet occurred. This temporal distortion is the basis of my confusion.
I’m sorry if you think I’m “intentionally distorting” your statement. That, of course, is not my goal. Please just assume in the future that I’m not very bright rather than intentionally malicious. It’s closer to the truth.
Responding to comments 18 & 19:
I have never written that someone is not a “good Democrat” when they disagree with my opinion. So I don’t have to “have [anything] against” the letter-signers to disagree with their opinion that a truthful negative ad is unacceptable in primaries when state party leaders adapt Ronald Reagan’s “11th Commandment” to protect Bruce Lunsford.
And I don’t have anything “against” them. I disagree with them.
As for the elected officials’ letter proving whether any of us are “right” or “wrong” in our opinions…
Since when does it make something “right” because 4 elected Democratic elected officials — even a majority of Kentucky Democratic officials — agree on it? Is Jim Gooch now the “right” choice for Co-Chair of the Natural Resources Committee?
Personally, I think “Operation Gooch” is brilliant: http://www.bluegrassroots.org/showDiary.do?diaryId=1069)
Does this February post say we should go along with what a group of elected officials agree to under pressure from party bigwigs in DC and Frankfort?:
The state of the Progressive movement in Kentucky
http://www.bluegrassroots.org/showDiary.do?diaryId=1051
Who among us has ever expressed the opinion that the “unity pledge” was a good idea, much less Democratic or democratic? Fischer was up-front about his opposition to the pledge. So was Joe, in April:
Amen, Ditto, and Give ‘Em Hell, Media Czech!
http://www.bluegrassroots.org/showDiary.do?diaryId=1344
These 4 elected officials would have signed the IDENTICAL letter if Fischer had followed Joe’s advice to air attack ads about endorsing Fletcher (betrayal of the Democratic Party) instead of about Lunsford’s accountability for top-down corporate malfeasance (betraying thousands of shareholders, patients, and employees, plus the US government and state governments). Does anyone really think that calling Lunsford a liar and political traitor in tv ads is not “a personal attack on a fellow Democrat’s character”? The elected officials’ letter does not agree with Joe that “Fischer’s campaign would be in dereliction of duty if it didn’t go after him of the Fletcher endorsement. His campaign is supposed to show that he’s the true Democrat.”
Are these 4 going to send a similar letter to Lunsford after he uses this letter in an ad/literature/mailings attacking Fischer’s character? As it is, Lunsford is airing an ad attacking Fischer’s character for airing an ad that’s far milder than what countless neutral parties said about Lunsford and his tenure at Vencor — both contemporaneously and in retrospect, both about official corporate policy and top management’s ethics.
http://www.lunsfordcollection.com/reviews.html
Finally, I hope that these 4 will send the same letter to Hillary Clinton. At the very least, I hope Mongiardo/Conway/Luallen admit that this sentiment means they must join Yarmuth in endorsing Barack Obama. Lunsford, too, of course.
I really don’t have the strength at this time of night to define “if” for you. Seriously.
How is what Fischer is doing any different than what Ben Chandler did to Lunsford the final weekend prior to the 2003 gubernatorial primary?
It isn’t.
check this out
bluegrassroots.org/showDiary.do?diaryId=1520
Now that Shawn has made my comment from last night appear on this thread, I want to add one factual point.
Lunsford’s omnipresent ad criticizing Fischer’s ad does not just deny what Fischer claims. Lunsford’s narrator accuses Fischer of using an “actress pretending to be a victim.”
The 90-year-old woman does not say or insinuate that she or anyone connected to her was a Vencor victim. The Lunsford ad lies about that.
Yes, she was an actress. No, she was not paid, and she was not scripted. And she was not alone when she came to a Fischer press conference yesterday:
http://www.politickerky.com/treypollard/483/fischer-vows-continue-hits-lunsfords-history
And now that my comments have shown up, the comments I reference are no longer #18 and #19. Oops.
Joe,
Thanks for getting the dialog started.
jim
Oh, please. You can’t sit there on your rear and tell me that Joe Q. Public doesn’t think Dale Carter Cooper doesn’t come across as a victim. You’ve got to be kidding.
The ad doesn’t have to say that she’s a victim– that’s obviously what is portrayed. Otherwise a 700-year-old woman wouldn’t have been used. And flipping Jeri– who loved Bruce last year, as she always promised our campaign that she had no personal grudge against him and would never speak out against him– wouldn’t have been trotted out to tie Fischer’s ad to Chandler’s 2003 ad.
Don’t even try to tell me that Cooper wasn’t portraying a victim. That’s ludicrous.
Joe:
I agree with you almost all of the time. But if one was to follow your logic re: Bruce Lunsford, it would also “make sense” for the Dems to hand the Nomination to Hillary. I have noticed that it is these same “Democratic” leaders who continue to prolong the Iraq war. Who just can’t find it in their “conscience” to support out Constitution and what it stands for, the rule of law over political expediency.
Thanks to their “leadership” we have the “patriot act”, which is anything but a display of Patriotism. And now we hear that the “telecom” immunity act is to come back with, you guessed it, immunity granted to the telecoms.
So no, Senator Lizard Schumer, I will not be voting for your boy Bruce. He may have the money, but that is all. Next time see if you can find a “Democrat” for us to support. And by the way, Chuck, how is your boy Mukasey, the new A.G., working out for you?
Bruce Lunsford’s track record will be open to attacks from Mitch McConnell whether Fischer points them out now or not. And McConnell will have the huge financial edge as well.
Fischer has no background to be concerned about though. He is clean.